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January 05, 2009

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jon edwards

"Jon, Why do you think PSNH wanted laidlaw to do this/ Because theye couldn't but here we have it that this is, for all intensive purposes,"

We have surmised for a long time that PSNH has been the back room player in this. Now it is obvious and easier to corner. Why wouldn't Public Service accept power from ANYONE willing to provide them with power up here? I think the real reason they refuse to cooperate with Clean Power is because they Know full well they will never have a chance of ownership of Clean Power.

The problem is that Laidlaw (or whomever the owner is of the Burgess mill site) through a "pass through" with PSNH can pass higher costs onto the consumer making it impossible for companies like Clean Power to compete at higher wood prices. Mr. Belanger, who is overseeing the Burgess mill site has a son who is posting about these pass through rate hikes on Ihub as we speak. It adds to the monopoly PSNH enjoys by preventing smaller companies to survive. PSNH can then very easily move in as these companies hit the auction block and pick them up for salvage value.

The wood studies are telling us to operate smaller biomass companies in areas to provide for the sustainability of the forest, the State has set into place regulations to keep companies like PSNH growing into more of a monopoly, and this Burgess mill site plant would allow both negatives to happen at the expense of the rate payer and northern forest.

This is why Berlin needs to go well beyond Berlin to get these other entities involved in a very real concern that shouldn't be taken lightly and should be heard loudly in Concord. For too long we've had a State Senator and PSNH employee/Berlin exMayor practicing back room politics, not only at the expense of Berlin citizens but at the expense of the forests that made them. This has been done under the guise of job creation, however the smaller biomass facilities strategically located within the State where local wood supply is available can accomplish providing the same number of jobs without ruining the forest and/or driving electricity rates sky high.

Timothy Gordon

Jon,
Have you ever thought that PSNH might, might mind you, be more willing to deal with one company, that is less experienced say, so that they can control the situation rather than being expected to deal evenly? Since "we" do not know the deal that is in place, or more to the point the value of the deal in place, if for instance, they have negotiated a price far lower than "market value" because of desperation of an inexperienced company to have any deal in place. Rather than having to deal with a industry savvy business, that knows the ins and outs, and know what the price should be, and can demand a higher price for their product? Now who would you rather deal with?
Now I have no knowledge of the deal that either company has worked out, this is all just from the prospective of understanding business. One point that I find funny, and that has gone by the road side is that both Laidlaw AND Clean Power have some kind of deal with Fraiser for hot water, now, how much can they possibly need? and with the conversion of their own, me thinks that someone is going to be very disappointed with the lack they really are going to need, one less cost center to count on. So many factors, so little information, at best speculation without facts, can anyone say "Guessing Game?"

jon edwards

Given a choice, yes, PSNH would prefer to deal with a company destined to failure or less educated than one which already has a track record of success as PSNH can take advantage of such a company especially if such a company would be closing up shop and auctioning to PSNH at salvage value. That does not mean that the State and its people need to support a project that threatens already existing biomass companies, sustainability of the forest, and additional Power (in many ways) to a monopoly holding company by the name of PSNH. Don't get me wrong, I have relatives and friends who work for PSNH. None-the-less they have been the first one's I've told how pathetic I think this situation is and how much we need to fight to keep this from happening.

As to Fraser, I think Fraser will only purchase from one producer. Since Laidlaw is too far away to produce steam, it may make more sense for Fraser to purchase both steam and hot water from Clean Power. Since Fraser doesn't necessarily know for sure which company will end up producing power in the region it makes sense for Fraser to stay friendly with both operations. By the way, at the planning board meeting, I noticed that a representative from Brookfield power attended and asked about Clean Power's connection details. Clean Power was very open about their connection choices and it seemed to me quite interesting that reps from both companies were talking at length, probably for the first time, after the meeting as if they were discussing about working in harmony with one another.Open conversation, out in front of the public, between two viable power companies. Much different than Berlin, Ellicotteville and Henniker have experienced with Laidlaw.

Timothy Gordon

Jon,
My point was/is that a lot of conclusion jumping going on with out a whole lot of hard facts! Also a lot of weight given to people that would have a hard time finding a shoe with their foot in it.
I used to like the guy that did the weather from the top of Mt. Washington, he opened the window, "yup, it's windy", or as the great detective of our youth, "Just the facts mam"!

jon edwards

Never said my foot fit the shoe. Tim, why don't we just wait until it's too late when we have all the facts without a shadow of doubt. Isn't that how monopoly's grow while everyone sits on the sidelines waiting for everyone else to gather all the facts? Then...everyone looks at each other and exclaims...oh oh what happened? Sometimes things move forward on a hunch when facts are hidden.

V.

Or PSNH is going for the big bucks, with the big project and they are probably inclined to see Clean Powers failure,, that failure would ensure more wood for their LLEG machine. PSNH aint playing by village rules, they rule the village and they don't care about anything past making a dollar.

Timothy Gordon

Jon,
According to standard economic theory, a monopoly will sell a lower quantity of goods at a higher price than firms would in a purely competitive market.
History has taught us that a Monopoly is created, and it is not till it is well advanced in the market place, that it is called a Monopoly, and not just having a greater market share than anyone else. If just a larger market share was required for a Monopoly, I would say look to Berlin City Auto, WalMart, for in their fields, they have the largest market share, just an observation.
Jon, you must be feeling paranoid, did I offer you a shoe horn? I think not!
Jon, there is something to be said about looking before leaping, Measure twice, cut once, I think before bed mates are thrown together, you might need to have a reason they will play nicely together.
Being forced by law to purchase power produced, does not make a good relationship, and being eyed for dinner by a cannibal, so to speak, does not make a good dinner partner.
In ten years, ten months if the project fails, then it will be up for sale, if it is already not. Who knows what the future holds, new solar technologies may make this form of energy obsolete, the only thing that is certain, we will be older. That is a fact, I like facts, one fact is that there needs to be elected people that put the people that they represent first and foremost, rather than their own agendas as we have now.
I think that there has been enough speculation and facts are needed. Rather than having City Councilors creating an atmosphere of hostility by spouting off at the mouth about how they are going to be scrutinizing the every action at every turn, they would be creating/recruiting a person to be a liaison between the City and Laidlaw during the process of creating the "plant", that an open line of communication might be had. As it now stands, Laidlaw has been given warning that they will be met with less than open minds, and that my friend is an invitation to disaster for the Citizens of this City.

jon edwards

I'm thinking you may be missing an important opportunity here. According to what Clean Power stated at the planning board meeting, Clean Power is coming in as an agent of the city because of the option that is in place. Clean Power has been in discussions with interested utilities to sell power to. You may find that people in Berlin like the idea of the city being involved with a power plant though I'm not sure if the city is or not. From my perspective it would be great if Clean Power was an agent of the city and the city was interested in owning and operating an appropriate, environmentally and socially responsible plant that has all the synergies we're talking about. Certainly Clean Power is open to the idea and Clean Power has the expertise to guide the city forward. Look at the synergy developed by Concord Steam in Concord.

Who says anyone needs to be open arms to Laidlaw or any company if the city is coming forward to state they don't want a particular plant in the middle of the city because of it's impacts far and large to quality of life? Because PSNH is too powerful? Give me a break!

V.

Posted by: veritas-twj Date: Thursday, January 08, 2009 10:39:25 AM
In reply to: None Post # of 40678

My goodness the LLEG message board has become lively and active again in recent days...

Tom

Patience.

It wasznt me!!!! Yes Jon I see how they react! Stacking them hits and they are reading your stuff too while they are there and out here too perhaps.

Timothy Gordon

Well Jon,
So the project progresses, there lies the frustration I read. My question is, where do you go from here? What has been learned, and what is going to be done to protect your idea of and in the future? Or is it time to watch the "turtle" syndrome take effect?

jon edwards

1.Take Littleton Power and Light's success as a model and run with it. Littleton, in addition to having access to 93, also has cheap power.
2.We need to speak with some of the top reps in the legislature that do not like to see PSNH as a monopoly and have done a good job along the way keeping PSNH from building any more plants and tell them where this is pointing at.
3.Actively take up Clean Power on their offering of some sort of partnership as a municipality. Municipality owned plants perform very well and reasonably in both NH and Vermont and I'm sure throughout the US if one were to research it.Especially if you have a knowledgeable company such as Clean Power who is willing to partner with you.

With all the education available out there regarding wood sustainability and key people in the legislature vehemently against a PSNH monopoly, coupled with existing biomass companies showing concern, the Appalachian Mountain Club, Sierra Club, Fish and Game all working towards protection through the Conservation Fund to maintain the north country way of life, how could we possible have better timing than now to make a stand?

Rocky

Your very accurate depiction of the monopoly and influence of PSNH leads us back to the core issue. As long as we have reactive government and passive citizens we will continue to pay the fiddler and dance to his beat, regardless of the issue/tune.

Timothy Gordon

So Nero,
You got your violin all tuned up?

jon edwards

How exactly does Nero come into this subject matter which is very possible to become an upbeat solution locally? Are you talking about Shaws or something?

Timothy Gordon

Jon,
When all falls apart, play music. I would prefer the piano, but, need a wheel barrel to carry a note and one is easier than the other! Rocky and his fiddler comment, geez Jon, jumpy today aren't you?
Upbeat? Solution? Locally? Prey tell, spill the beans!

jon edwards

Not all is falling apart. Far from it. I've already spilled the beans. Just need some help picking them up.

Timothy Gordon

That is true Jon, the stack is not falling apart.
Get a dog, they are great at getting things that have dropped!

jon edwards

The stack stands to fall apart at the seams though the concrete integrity of it may still be intact. This power play isn't going to work for PSNH. Need some help out there to send a clear message from the north country and we're getting the help. Join in or keep whining and attempting to sink a ship that isn't sinking, your side of the story makes our concern stronger imho.

Meredith Hatfield is the state’s “Consumer Advocate”.

http://www.oca.nh.gov/index.htm

Her position as OCA at the PUC gives her the mandate to stand up for all ratepayers in the State of New Hampshire. As such, it would be appropriate for any rate payer, or group of ratepayers, to file a complaint with her regarding actions that could raise what they pay for electricity.

As such, she would be interested in a complaint that PSNH appears to be engaging in favoritism with regards to awarding contracts to purchase power. Shouldn’t PSNH be engaging in competitive bidding and soliciting power contracts across a wide range of entities in an open and above board process that is designed to get the best possible rates for NH ratepayers, rather than their apparent current process of establishing purchase power agreements with some, while openly rebuffing others? Not only is it a matter of fairness and good business practice, but one can only assume that failure to obtain power contracts in an open and competitive manner will result in higher rates for all NH ratepayers.

Timothy Gordon

Jon,
First, I do not whine, second, my ship came in and is in no way in danger of sinking, and lastly Jon, what knowledge do you have that PSNH is "their apparent current process of establishing purchase power agreements with some, while openly rebuffing others?" I am guessing that they have refused to purchase power generated somewhere? I have not heard about this, but you must have the facts.

jon edwards

They are refusing to communicate with Clean Power as to the purchase of power that is to be generated by Clean Power, while they developed a memorandum of understanding to be purchasing power from Laidlaw. These are both proposed facilities not operating facilities.

Meredith Hatfield is the state’s “Consumer Advocate”.

http://www.oca.nh.gov/index.htm

Her position as OCA at the PUC gives her the mandate to stand up for all ratepayers in the State of New Hampshire. As such, it would be appropriate for any rate payer, or group of ratepayers, to file a complaint with her regarding actions that could raise what they pay for electricity.

As such, she would be interested in a complaint that PSNH appears to be engaging in favoritism with regards to awarding contracts to purchase power. Shouldn’t PSNH be engaging in competitive bidding and soliciting power contracts across a wide range of entities in an open and above board process that is designed to get the best possible rates for NH ratepayers, rather than their apparent current process of establishing purchase power agreements with some, while openly rebuffing others? Not only is it a matter of fairness and good business practice, but one can only assume that failure to obtain power contracts in an open and competitive manner will result in higher rates for all NH ratepayers.

Timothy Gordon

Jon,
Could it be that the amount of legal work that needs to be done for one of these agreements is such that one has to be completed before another starts? Contract law is one of the most complicated there is, time consuming and expensive.
Not all things move in the time frame that we want. Just not having an agreement yet is not the same as not having an agreement at all.
As you have stated, one is more savvy than the other, so deal with the amateur before dealing with the pro. Just an observation. But I am sure that you will take it to the extreme.

jon edwards

No it's not one at a time and yes we need to take it to the extreme.

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