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July 19, 2011

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Chet

Thanks Rocky - very interesting. Got em all downloaded on my iPhone. I've got to drive to Portland tomorrow. Now I have something to listen to.

Rocky

Happy trails Chet. Portland,...one of my favorite places.

warren,

"and there is no new thing under the sun."

- King Solomon (?) c. 940 B.C.

Thomas Robert Malthus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Classical economics

Born

February 14, 1766
Surrey, England

Died

December 29, 1834 (aged 68)
Bath, England

Nationality

British

Field

demography, macroeconomics, evolutionary economics[citation needed]


Opposed

William Godwin, Jean-Baptiste Say, Marquis de Condorcet, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, David Ricardo

Influences

David Ricardo, Jean Charles Léonard de Sismondi

Influenced

Charles Darwin, Francis Place, Garrett Hardin, John Maynard Keynes, Pierre Francois Verhulst, Alfred Russel Wallace, Karl Marx, Mao Zedong


Contributions

Malthusian growth model

The Reverend[1] Thomas Robert Malthus FRS (14 February 1766 – 29 December 1834)[2] was an English scholar, influential in political economy and demography.[3][4] Malthus popularized the economic theory of rent.[5]

Malthus has become widely known for his theories about population and its increase or decrease in response to various factors. The six editions of his An Essay on the Principle of Population, published from 1798 to 1826, observed that sooner or later population gets checked by famine and disease. He wrote in opposition to the popular view in 18th-century Europe that saw society as improving and in principle as perfectible.[6] William Godwin and the Marquis de Condorcet, for example, believed in the possibility of almost limitless improvement of society. So, in a more complex way, did Jean-Jacques Rousseau, whose notions centered on the goodness of man and the liberty of citizens bound only by the social contract—a form of popular sovereignty.

Malthus thought that the dangers of population growth would preclude endless progress towards a utopian society: "The power of population is indefinitely greater than the power in the earth to produce subsistence for man".[7] As an Anglican clergyman, Malthus saw this situation as divinely imposed to teach virtuous behaviour.[8] Believing that one could not change human nature, Malthus wrote:

Must it not then be acknowledged by an attentive examiner of the histories of mankind, that in every age and in every State in which man has existed, or does now exist
That the increase of population is necessarily limited by the means of subsistence,

That population does invariably increase when the means of subsistence increase, and,

That the superior power of population is repressed, and the actual population kept equal to the means of subsistence, by misery and vice.[9]

Malthus placed the longer-term stability of the economy above short-term expediency. He criticised the Poor Laws,[10] and (alone among important contemporary economists) supported the Corn Laws, which introduced a system of taxes on British imports of wheat.[11] He thought these measures would encourage domestic production, and so promote long-term benefits.[12]

Malthus became hugely influential, and controversial, in economic, political, social and scientific thought. Many of those whom subsequent centuries term evolutionary biologists read him,[13] notably Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace, for each of whom Malthusianism became an intellectual stepping-stone to the idea of natural selection.[14][15] Malthus remains a writer of great significance and controversy.

Global Ice Age - Late '70's, Acid Rain - '80's, Rainforrest Destruction '80's, Global Warming Late '90's - Today.
Over Population.... A Perennial Favorite. All Scare Tactic Talking points of the Left, where America and the Western World are Invariably the Bad Guy's. Ho-hum.


Wing Nut

Another good post Warren. And I agree with you. This is a major tactic of the left, particularly those (like BHO) who are obsessed with wealth redistribution and in turn are abandoning the US Constitution and the ideas of our founding fathers. As a wise man once told me; "The only thing that results from weath redistribution is that everyone becomes poor."

I sincerely believe that if we don't begin to heed the words of our founding fathers and the US Constitution, America will soon cease to be the once great nation that fostered capitalism and ingenuity. And, this is all happening with the assistance of the main stream media. Sad, really. Hopefully people will wake up soon before it is too late. Unfortunately, I fear that people have become too complacent to realize that the wool is being pulled over their eyes.

Take care,
WN

Rocky

WN, following the logic of your old (conservative)saying, if we all became poor if the wealth was redistributed, where does the balance of that wealth go?

Wing Nut

Rocky,

If I have to explain that quote then you likely wouldn't understand. Suffice to say that history is full of examples of societies that have tried wealth redistribution and have FAILED miserably. Wealth redistribution kills capitalism and also kills incentive and innovation. Think about it and I bet you can come up with your own historical examples of societies where it has been tried and failed.

The only way to truly save this great country is to go back to the principles of our founding fathers and embrace the US Constitution. I'm pretty sure you won't find any language in the Constitution that says, "The Federal Government should take from the wealthy and give to the poor so that we can have social justice." While I agree that the Government has a certain level of responsibility toward the most vulnerable members of our society (i.e. children, elderly, disabled, etc.) there are also limits to what the Federal Government can and should be doing. The founding fathers knew this, and that is obvious from their writings.

It is also clear that this administration has lost its way in that respect. The Obama Administration policies are clearly responsible for lengthening the recession and delaying the economic recovery that we so desperately need. He campaigned on "hope and change" but the only thing we got was "change" and it wasn't the "change" we needed.

You may think BHO is the anointed one, but many people I know (who don't drink the main stream media Kool Aid) realize he has failed us. Wealth redistribution is not the answer to our problems. Period. End of discussion.

Take care,
WN

warren,

Easy Rocky, The Balance of Wealth goes to International Banking Interests. The People who Own and Run the so called Federal Reserve. These Interests do not care about Republican or Democrat, that's a Smokescreen for Rubes like us.
How's this for an eye opener? The Wizzard of OZ goes like so:

The Tin Man who does not have a Heart is Industry
The Straw Man who does not have a Brain is The Farmer
The Cowardly Lion is The Royal Bank of England

They Follow The Yellow Brick Road ( Gold Bars ) to OZ ( Ounces ) ie always Follow the Money. When they get there, there is a little man ( The Fed Chairman ) making a Big Buzz.

And Dorothy is the average Confused American wondering WTH is going on. We're being Plundered and Busted Out, plain an simple. Just like what Happened to that Restaurant in the Movie Goodfellers. When its all over There will be the Rich and Powerful, The Bankers and their associates BOTH "Democrat" AND "Republican" the 1%. And then there will be the Rest of Mankind, The Peasantry...Slaves to the 1%. A New Dark Age will Follow. Totalitarianism.
Political Idealism? That's the Glint in the Eye of the Dying Worker as He Falls at the Barricade fighting for what was a Lie. And The Party Bosses Never Gave a Damn.

Rocky

You don't have to explain the quote WN, I think I'm capable of that, but can you give me an answer to my question? I bet you believe in voodoo economics too,that's another good Republican economic theory that sounds good, but doesn't work for most of us who have to work for a living. Going back to the founding fathers argument is a cop-out. How did the founding fathers know that we would end up with a corporate democracy? How did the founding fathers envisioned the military industrial complex? How did the founding fathers address the issues brought on by the size, influence and power of Wall Street? How did the founding fathers deal with the country's military spending and the worlds biggest military budget? Sorry, but I don't believe we can deal with every contemporary issue using 200 year old guidelines verbatim.

warren,

There is none so Blind as the Man who won't see, eh WN?
Mathematics remains Constant despite what John Maynard Keynes might have proposed.

Tim

Well spoken WN and Warren. It is assuring to see those principles are never far from the conversation. It’s the principle of personal liberty that drives everything and for many it IS really that simple. If I read him right, it sounds like Rocky wants us to interpret what the Constitution says to fit today's problems or in other words, the way he sees it. While a growing number of others already agree on it’s original intent and will never compromise on those principles, period.

On a positive note, after reading Rocky’s views on the issues we face, I believe I see some common ground. There appears to be some agreement of what was the result of bad policy, but lack of agreement on the cause or the cure.

Where I personally begin to part ways with Rocky, is how to fix the problem. Not to oversimplify a very complicated issue but suffice to say, I am seeing more and more people who agree that we have strayed way to far from what the average person understands to be the basic principles of personal liberty. Not everyone agrees with that, but the division is becoming clear and in my opinion, more non-negotiable as time goes on.

Our society must be based on the principles of personal liberty as understood and written in the Constitution. For a growing number, there will be no compromise of that, period. This is what is worth fighting for and which many have given their life to defend. Doing nothing is NOT an option, to a growing number it is just that simple. Give me liberty or give me death does mean something other then just sounding like a slick campaign slogan. Yes Rocky, fancy slogans still mean something to many. To some it is only an idea who’s time has passed. It has been ridiculed, oppressed, and more recently to some degree even banned. Proof it remains powerful and will not be abandoned.

Good discussion gentlemen.

Antonio Andolini

On another topic discussed here often; when even the Useless Reader is against you...
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20110720/OPINION01/707209995/-1/news

Rocky

I agree Tim, this has been a good conversation and if we spent enough time at this we would discover that we agree far more often than not. I believe that we have the same goals in mind and it is the route on how to get there that's at the bottom of our argument. The real trick/key to this conversation is keeping an open mind the best we can.

Antonio Andolini

Getting back to the subject of (losing) liberty:
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1353264

Antonio Andolini

Along with keeping an open mind, the real trick / key is to not despair, to not give up, to continue speaking out against government gone amuck.

Rocky

I believe that it's also important to remember that the government is not the enemy. Bad government, government without accountability, government without citizen participation is the enemy.

warren,

I Love what it says in the N.H. Constitution, Govt. is Our Slave ( Servant ) and We are its Master. George Washington Likened Govt. to Fire. A Useful Servant but a Fearful Master.
The Fire has got out of Control, and History Shows that it will not be Tamed again without much Sorrow. Plus, The Fire is now the Tool of Ominous Banking Interests. A Study of how the Rothschild Banking Family influenced the Collapse of the London Stock Exchange in 1815 after the Battle of Waterloo will show what Dire Straits we are in. Nathan "Cleaned Up"!
Napoleon, interestingly would have No Truck with "Money Lenders" and preferred to get His Financing the Old Fashioned way. He stole the Gold from one German State, I hear. Today Gaddafi is in the same Boat, He Holds approx. 150 tons of Gold
as a Reserve. And is not interested in Federal Reserve Notes...
Ask yourselves WHY We are not bombing Syria? when Assad is openly machine gunning His Citizens, and has no support at home. Follow the Yellow Brick Road. $1700 per OZ? What is that piece of Toilet Paper in your wallet Really Worth?

warren,

The Man has the Answer Tim! Unfortunately, He has been Ignored, Ridiculed, Insulted...and if He EVER gets close to being Elected President, Do I have to tell you what will happen to Him?
-Good points also Antonio.

jon

Interesting that Scott Tranchemontagne is a spokesman for Cate St. Capital and an Advisor to Bass as referenced here and in my last post.

http://www.berlindailysun.com/featured/story/both-sides-blame-other-collapse-biomass-project

Rocky

It all fits in a neat little package in our "Corporate Democracy". Our elected officials and corporate lobbyist are interchangeable, two sides of the same coin.

jon

the mirror of small town happenins to Corporate demonstrosity...i mean democracy...i think?

warren,

Hello WN, Tim and ALL Other Unliberal "Infidels"!... Greetings!
After reading a Letter to the Editor in the Infamous Manchester Union Leader, Scourge of Taxers since 1936. I easily found the Following info in less than 30 seconds on the as yet untaxed and uncensored Internet. Enjoy!

How Much Do You Pay in Income Taxes?

Individual Income Tax Rates and Shares Explained

By Tom Murse, Contributing Writer

See More About:
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irs

IRS Gets Very Little Love
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Aug 10 2010

The debate over whether to extend former President George W. Bush's tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 beyond their expiration in 2010 reignited scrutiny of the growing tax burden on the wealthiest Americans.

President Barack Obama and most Democrats on Congress favored extending the tax breaks just for the middle class, or families earning less than $250,000. But they were skeptical of keeping the tax cuts in place for the wealthiest age earners.

Their hesitance drew condemnation from many congressional Republicans.

Even former GOP presidential hopeful Fred Thompson got into the act, cutting a TV ad for the League of American Voters.

"Folks, America's economy is struggling, and Congress is about to make it a whole lot worse. Our nation faces a massive, automatic tax increase at the end of this year when the Bush tax cuts expire," Thompson said.

The U.S. Treasury Department estimated that extending just the middle-class tax cuts would cost about $3 trillion over 10 years. Adding tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans would cost roughly another $680 billion, according to the treasury.

Here's a look at individual tax rates and shares by income in 2007, the most recent data available from the Internal Revenue Service:
•The top 1 percent: Americans who earned an adjusted gross income of $410,096 or more accounted for 22.8 percent of all wages. But they paid 40.4 percent of total reported income taxes, an increase from 39.9 percent in 2006, according to the IRS.


•The top 5 percent: Americans who earned $160,041 or more accounted for 37.4 percent of all wages in 2007. But they paid 60.6 percent of the country's total reported income taxes, up from 60.1 percent a year earlier.


•The top 10 percent: Americans who earned at least $113,018 paid 71.2 percent of the nation's income taxes, up from 70.8 percent a year earlier.


•The top 25 percent: Americans who earned at least $66,532 paid 86.6 percent of the nation's income taxes, up from 86.3 percent a year earlier.


•The top 50 percent: Americans who earned at least $32,879 paid 97.1 percent of the nation's income taxes, up from 97 percent a year earlier.


•The bottom 50 percent: Americans who earned less than $32,879 paid 2.9 percent of the nation's income taxes, down from 3 percent a year earlier.

An important side note: While the tax burden on this country's largest wage-earners has continued to grow since the Bush tax cuts were passed, the impact has been substantially muted.

The income gains made by the wealthiest Americans far outpaced that for the remaining workers, according to an analysis conducted for the Washington-based Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

In fact, two-thirds of the nation's total income gains from 2002 to 2007 flowed to the top 1 percent of households, the 2009 analysis of IRS data by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez showed.

That top 1 percent held a larger share of income in 2007 than at any time since 1928, their analysis found.

Also See:
•Tax Help from the IRS
•U.S. Taxpayer Advocate Service
•Small Business Health Care Tax Credit

Related Articles
•Who Pays the Most Income Tax?
•Earned Income Tax Credit - Single Parents Earned Income Tax Credit
•Federal Income Taxes — the Basics - Personal Finance in Your 20s and ...
•Canadian Economic Update 2005 - Tax Cuts in Federal Economic Update
•Most Americans Feel They Pay More Taxes Than Trump

Tom Murse
Contributing Writer
Sign up for the Newsletter
.. .

Rocky

Thanks Jon. All is not what seems to appear..... What a tangled web we weave........

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